Agua Dulce Gloriosa (they/them)

34

Miami, Florida

Akia Dorsainvil: This is the first of many recorded conversations between me, Jasmine, and our current interviewee, Agua Dulce. We will be discussing all things spiritual as we figure out how Miami is currently gaining spiritual vocabulary. Where does this vocabulary come from? What does faith look like for this specific person?

Aqua Dulce: Hi, I'm Agua Dulce Gloriosa.

AD: What are your pronouns?

ADG: My pronouns are they/them.

AD: What's your age?

ADG: I am 34, but feel like I'm 35, so I've been telling everybody 35 over the past year.

AD: Where are you from?

ADG: I am from Miami, Florida, born and raised.

AD: In a specific area in Miami?

ADG: Yes, I was raised right outside of Sweetwater, in unincorporated Dade, but I claim Sweetwater because it's right next to it. That’s where I was raised, then I lived in Allapattah, and now North Miami for the past several years.

AD: Where are your ancestors from?

ADG: My mom is from Colombia, and so the folks who are the lineage from there are indigenous from the tribes that were Pijao and Guatavita, and also, Arab from Palestine and Lebanon on her side. And on my dad's side, he was Cuban, but he was second or third generation Spanish, so Spain to Cuba.

AD: What is your religion, practice, spirituality, or faith?

ADG: I don't really have a specific, named way of practice. I think that due to the many different cultures that have influenced me via being from them, or the process of colonization or decolonization, it's kind of like an amalgamation of different practices. So that includes elements of Santeria, which includes elements of East Asian cultures like the Tao. I do a lot of earth worship, a lot of ancestor veneration, a lot of self-as-godliness practice, because I am a mirror to those who came before me. I have a lot of quantum physics in my spiritual practice as well. The same materials and matter that I am made up of are the same thing that everything else is made up of. There's no distinguishing me from this godly creator, a source of spirit figure. So, it's all an intertwined practice.

JR: How would you define ancestor veneration?

ADG: For me, veneration is just like honoring, right? It's like practices of showing care, love, and respect for those who came before. And so, in terms of close relatives who have passed, it's my dad. I wasn't too close to my ancestors. As far as direct ancestral folks, it's just my dad. I have an altar to him in my home. I have my favorite outfit that he would wear and my favorite shoes that he would wear; they're hung up on the altar. The intention is to take it down and put another outfit up whenever that makes sense. I have a whole bunch of his items. He had a Bible that was really important to him because he read it to his brother when his brother was passing away, so I have that Bible there. He carried red ribbons around because that was what his spiritual advisor told him would be protective for him, so I have the ones that were in his car on the altar. I have the knife that he used to sleep with on the altar. I have a coconut shell on the altar. And a lot of different elements of him: his car keys, his necklace, a ring that he would never take off, and the perfume that he would wear. I also have treats for him. He likes turon, so I have turon there. He was a drinker. So often, I'll have either white Zinfandel wine or Tequila Jose Cuervo specifically on there for him. And always a glass of water, a cute little vessel of water there. I want to drink more coffee because he was a fan of coffee as well. There are also selenite and incense. We have a cat that sometimes jumps onto the altar space, so we can't have candles because it's too dangerous, but ideally, there would also be candles there as well. And a lot of the elements of the color blue. Because he was connected to Yemaya. His two main folks were Yemaya and San Lazaro, so there’s a lot of ocean energy there as well.

JR: You also mentioned that quantum physics is a part of your practice.

ADG: With quantum physics, it's more about the understanding of quantum itself. We understand that atoms make us up. And atoms have specific rules. There are specific ways that they exist, but what makes up the atoms is quantum. So even smaller particles make us up physically through science. But quantums are lawless. Quantum shift the way that they are being perceived, depending on who is perceiving them and if they are being perceived. So, they are waves, or they are particles, or they are whatever. For me, quantum is the very fabric of what we are, something that is fluid and lawless. And it's not chaotic, although it is chaotic. But for me, it's more like it flows. It does not follow any specific prescribed rules of how we understand it to be. I have practices where I try to get in tune with my quantum. Because if I am being created by this quantum, then there is a relationship that's happening. If I can get into a deeper relationship with the quantum that creates me, then I am able to shift in whatever ways that I want to, because the very basics of what I am made up of is willing to be lawless and creative and free and fluid. So, when I was going through a lot of my trans masculinity, and I was in a very he-him era, instead of moving into more of medicinally transitioning things, I was doing a lot of deep meditation practices for my quantum. And just being like, if this is the way that I perceive myself, and we can all choose to show up in these ways, and everything is both physical and not physical, then how can I shift myself that way energetically, right? Which was working, and then I was like, “Actually, I don't want to be a man.” So, we reverted back. I want to be fat! I want to have joy, not sadness!

AD: What is your first memory of spirituality?

ADG: Good question. I have unfortunately blocked out a lot of my upbringing, but I was raised Catholic. My dad was a Santero, so he had his own practices, but my mom was very much like, “You can do that, but let's keep that away from the kids.” I would think that the first memories I would have would be the Catholic church, like wine, communion, the little crackers that they give you, things like that. The body of Christ, they compel you, you know what I mean? But elements of that, of sitting around, hearing people talk, and not being interested in what they're saying, only because my attention span doesn't attention span the same way, “You lost me after the first paragraph.” I'm also not an auditory person when it comes to learning. When we would go to church sometimes, we would go every single Sunday. It got to the point where my mom had to sit outside so that I could read or run around during church time because I would not be able to sit still. I also have memories of singing in the choir for church. I was banned from church, too.

AD: Was church seen as a safe space for you?

ADG: No, so I am autistic or neurodiverse, so I ask a lot of questions. In an investigative way to understand, not because I am challenging things, but also because I'm challenging things. You can't just tell me something and then think I'm going to be like, “yeah, heard, perfect, let's do it,” right? So, I remember I was just a mildly combative kid, and I wasn't a troublemaker, right? Which, who cares, but it was more a desire to understand. I was banned from church because they told me that Lucifer, who was like Satan, the devil, whatever, questioned God and his ability to be all-powerful. And then, because of that, for even thinking of questioning him, he was sent to hell. First of all, as somebody who asks a lot of questions, I was like, “What the fuck?” Second of all, “Why didn't God answer his question?” And by me asking that, the church people, while I was in CCD classes, waiting in line to get my confirmation, had my mom come and pick me up. They were like, “Tu hijas un demonio.” Your kid is a demon. So, my mom asked, “What happened?” And they said, “Oh, she's just asking too many questions.” And my mom’s like, “Well, what were the questions?” When they told her what I had asked, my mom said, “Well, what did you answer her?” They didn't have an answer, so she said, “Okay, well, you can't have a young person that you're teaching ask questions and not answer the questions. They're not questioning their faith. They're questioning what you're teaching them. That should be something that you should be able to have a conversation about.” And then they basically were like, “She can't come back.” So, I wrote three letters of apology. One to God, one to the priest, one to the teacher. And I was like, the teacher, no, the priest wasn't even there, and God saw everything. Also, the God that they're teaching is an egotistical maniac. I think God has bigger problems than asking questions. A lot of my original memories of spirituality through organized religion and the Catholic church are not fitting in, being disruptive, being a nuisance, and being a bad influence on other young people in my class. So, it was not a safe space at all.

AD: I know you talked a little bit about your father and his practice, but who truly introduced you to the ways of enriching? Did you learn all this stuff through your books? Did you learn, did you have any elders in your life remotely or friends?

ADG: Not really. I don't want to discredit anybody who maybe could have been inspiring in the practice of it. But there wasn't a specific person. It was something that organically happened. I didn't realize that I was building altars in a lot of my performance or installation spaces at the beginning of my work, until afterwards, when I had an altar-building practice. I looked back, and I was like, “This is an altar!” What are the elements of it? Whether it's earth, air, fire, water, or whether it's things that are connected to that theme, or that person, or whatever it is. So, there was not a specific person or space that I can be like, this is the one that taught me. But I feel like as somebody who is deeply connected to the people around me, the conversations are constantly happening. So, I feel like everybody who's been a part of my life has been able to inform my practice one way or another, at least the people who I'm having these conversations with. But there's not a single person. Also, through my own ways of seeing things and my poetic way of being, I identify it.

For me, things naturally take on this altar or this reverence in the way they are moving. I don't just put things down. Things need to feel good. The energy between the things, the spacing between the things, the color of the things, all of it needs to feel good. Harmonious. I think my practice has been built more on going deeper within, and really trying to feel what feels good, and listen to myself, and give myself power as well. I think that stems from having been told that I have so little power, because the Christian Catholic colonial God is the one who has all this power, this man.

My practice has been a calling back into myself, into listening to my deep intuition, and the ancestors that speak through me that have that knowledge. It's also difficult to lean on any specific practice when you come from so many places that lost it via colonization, or lost it via assimilation, or lost it via whatever it needed to be, to do, to survive. Where do I pinpoint the things that are clear-cut? I can do my research, and I can see what feels good. You'll never really know, because you had to be there in documentation. Also, how do I spread myself so far? Do I lean into the Arab part that I'm not very connected with? Do I lean into the Indigenous part? Do I lean into the Spanish part? Do I lean into the Afro-Caribbean part that hasn't formed? The ways that I practice, they're so interwoven and braided into each other that there's not a way to be like, this is her for me. That’s why I also go into Earth practice, because the land has been here since before we ever existed.

It'll continue on afterwards as well. The same land that is here is the same land that is everywhere else. It's all interconnected. It's our visions of the binaries and the borders and the demarcation of lines and whatever the fuck that's separated. The land that I'm touching here is the same land that goes around.

JR: That's kind of what we've found, I think, in talking to everyone, that everyone has a more blended practice. You might think that people are very staunch in what they're doing, but at least for our peers, and even some of our elders too, it usually is a blend of, a lot of the time, Catholicism or whatever Christianity.  So that, and as we've gone on these conversations, folks have been saying Buddhism or Hinduism, it doesn't always rely or fall back on the colonial religion. It often is because that's what a lot of us were informed by and a lot of us didn't grow up with other touch points. for it. I have a Bible on my altar, too.

AD: Can you tell me a little bit of history around your practices? Although you're a student from an intuitive space, I know you're also a student of life in general and enjoy researching. What have you found along the way that could help?

ADG: One of the different things that I looked into is Taoism. Taoism is an ancient Chinese practice similar to Buddhism. Where, from my understanding of Buddhism, everything is suffering, and you're looking for nirvana. Whereas with Taoism, it's not that there is no suffering; everything just is ours. We put our meaning onto the things; it would be a neutral experience, even if it's like bad or good, but our concepts of bad and good exist to define each other. So, if you're able to stay at the center and let the world keep spinning on its own, then you're able to have a pure experience of reality. And then for them, it's not a nirvana that you get to, you return back into the void from which all things emerged. Darkness upon darkness, darkness within darkness. That is something that I really resonated with during the pandemic, as I was spiraling, as I'm sure many others were. I was doing Tai Chi with Ethan, and he recommended that we read the Tao. So, I listened to an audiobook, and for me, it made sense. The book used a lot of nature metaphors and spoke about being a disciple of life versus being a disciple of death. Plants, when they bend and they are supple, they are able to shift with the wind. If or you step on it, it's able to spring back up. Plants are disciples of life. When water is able to flow and move, that's a disciple of life. But if you are stagnant, or if you are stuck, or if you are inflexible or rigid, then you're, they say, a disciple of death. But more so, there's no life existing in you. Tao helps you be more in flow, more fluid.

In terms of my Orisha elements, that's what Santeria is. The Orishas that I'm most researched are from Afro-Caribbean practice. They were coming from Yoruba and West African practices and were having to shift their practices while being in the Caribbean and the Americas, so they wouldn’t be persecuted. So, they're like, “We're going to give our God this name, and he will look like this, but the connected Orisha, the connected like origin deity is this person.” So, it's kind of like putting masks on for folks, or removing masks to like to allow them to see beyond just that one figure. We kind of knew my dad was into something, but it wasn't really until after he passed and we were looking through all his things.

Then my mom obviously is like, “Yeah, no, he did this, and he did this,” and we're like, “Why didn't you tell us?” So a lot of that practice came afterwards. I wish I would have been able to get into questions and conversations with him. We had lots of conversations about lots of things, but not that. And I don't know who he would practice with or who his folks were. Definitely kept that very much to himself.

And then in terms of my mom's indigenous lineage, very much like there was on my grandfather's side, through my mom's lineage, the Guatavita folks would basically choose a leader, and that leader would be covered in gold, and would immerse himself in a specific lake, in water when they would come out, they would be the personified version of God, through their mixing with water, that is what puts them into another level. Water to metals. That has informed a lot of like my metalworking practice, or even my name, which is Agua, or my own ways of connecting with water as a cleansing or amplification practice, you know? That’s also a really big one.

AD: New birth.

ADG: I do want to shout out Octavia Butler as well, and Parable of the Sower, where she's talking about change being God, and that we are the creatures that can, everything can create change, right? But if we're talking about us, as people, who are able to create change, and us being creators, then we naturally are God as well. So that's also somebody else who has informed my ways of moving through all of this.

AD: Would you say your father is the first practitioner in your family?

ADG: He might be the first, if we're speaking about Santeria specifically, because his family was Catholic. His sister was not into his things, and his brothers, I don't know, because they passed away early on, his parents, that was it. So I would assume so, but he was also a little bit of the black sheep, the odd one. Everybody else was more normative, and he was on his journey.

JR: I research syncretism, and I wanted to highlight what you said about the mask. There is an argument that syncretism is a mask, and another that syncretism creates its own practice.

ADG: It's more about knowing, and then, for me, it's who practices it. My dad was a white, Cuban man and practicing Santeria, but he had a black woman who was his spiritual advisor, and it was very specific to Cuba. Maybe if I were somebody else, or if I had a different identity, I would be more willing to like engage with that as one of my core practices. But I'm also like, “Was this practice his to claim?” Again, if we're looking at the culture of Cuba and of all these things, and the culture melding and it growing from that into something else, right? Yes, but also, through my own decolonial practices, I know where this came from. And even though he wasn't here specifically during colonization, irregardless, the same identities are holding different power dynamics. And in Cuba now, the same identities are holding different power dynamics. So for me, my lineage to Orisha practice does not come through any of my African ancestry, which I'm sure is in there, but it has not been a key main figure at large. So, if I moved into that and claimed that, it would feel wrong to do for me. But I also honor that it is connected to my identity. It is connected to my culture in Miami. My ancestry via my father also falls into what I practice in terms of earth related elements.

AD: Spirit does not get to talk about what color you are. Spirit does not care about what color you are. Spirit wants a home. And it will find a home wherever it sees fit. She wants to be known too.

JR: That's true. But I do respect what you're saying. That's kind of the project. I don't think we've come to a full conclusion on that either. I think Akia and I, even in choosing who to interview, we are working through that. But I do think that it's a home. And you need to be willing to do the work to respect it at the same time. I think your conclusion makes a lot of sense, that it wouldn't be your main thing.

ADG: But it's the same way I feel about all the different practices that I use. It's like none of them feel like, not that there has to be one, right? But sometimes I think about that. I think it's a really beautiful legacy to be able to carry on something that has been moving through your ancestry for eons, but so much of it has been chopped via colonization. It's like not talking about it or like people converting to Christianity, Catholicism, and losing whatever indigenous practices and not just indigenous, my Latin American indigenous, but their own practices that came with them from wherever it is. And there's so much that I'm not connected to, either. So it just feels like, whatever the product of everything that came before that has made me is the same way that my spiritual practice is built, but always with respect, but I'm never going to discard anything. I'm never going to speak poorly about anything.

AD: Because you still learned reverence.

ADG: I think that's the beautiful thing. We are in practices that teach us to respect history, respect elders, and respect where the source is, especially if we're making a grand return, at all points, to it.

AD: I think we genuinely are clarifying this in our way because everything about our lives is architecture. We're building from nothing. That doesn't exclude, so if you have anything, that's kind of the purpose of the project too.

ADG: We're building that from scratch in all the ways that everyone is building themselves out. Even though from scratch, because we are creating it ourselves, the tools that we are using are not from scratch. The tools that we are using, the things that I'm referencing, the things that I'm looking at, the things I'm being informed by, the conversations, all the tools that help me build the thing.

It is similar to gender for me, where I can understand these different labels as being the hierarchy, like the overall umbrellas for things like cis or trans or gay or straight or fag or dyke or non-binary or whatever. So, yes, these umbrella terms can be used to hold, you know, contain the identity. But my version of non-binary is very different than somebody else's version of non-binary. Or my trans identity is very different than many people's trans identity. Or like my faggy dyke is very different than faggy dyke. But it's through the context of what is given that I am able to create the thing that feels truest to me.

And that's where the same thing comes in with religion, things exist, or what feels truest to you. What part of the process is the truest to you? Which is why there is even a criterion to begin with or begin to begin with. Cause these are things that made sense for them.

AD: I saw a podcast recently, it was kind of talking about how, although we are connected to African spirituality practice or indigenous practices, these are not always going to be the answers to modern problems. So, you need to be able to do what our ancestors did, which was get with the times and make this work for you.

ADG: For now. And our ancestors help us out now, too, but now what does that look like with Taoism? They were offering whatever they had, and I think, in this time, if the $2 bill is what makes sense, then use it. And I think that's twofold because I do think the literal oil or the literal plant matter or whatever is something, but I also personally believe when I'm practicing, if I don't have a specific thing, maybe my earth element isn't the earth element that it calls for, but my intention is there, that’s definitely still something. The reason I think people are touchy about that has less to do with the actual thing and has more to do with who gets access. When we're like, “You can't just give a quarter,” and he says, “I didn't have more.” Well, then, who's going to feel like they have access to this, and how is this not gatekeeping or classist? I was at the ocean leave offerings, and I remember somebody was like, “Oh, but you can only give this.” I'm like, “Well, what if I didn't have that to give, then I can't offer anything?” I think it's the intention of love, the veneration, the respect. I feel like that matters more if somebody gives me chocolates that I don't like, but they do it with love.

AD: You’re not going to be picking what blessings you get from God. Spiritual practice is a two-way street, I think the alienation you were talking about other has a lot to do with the idea of a one-way conversation, bureaucracy within. Yeah, I think about that all the time because there have been times when I couldn't have something to offer in a very literal sense, and I would pray about it. This is what you know; you can offer it.

ADG: Well, I have two different things that are coming to mind. One, I remember feeling a little disconnected with the spirit. I worried if what I was doing was right, in relation to when I was trying to be more into orisha practice. I was like, “This feels forced.”  You want to feel as if you're organic, and I remember just feeling wrong about it. A friend was talking to me about how if everything is done with respect, the way that you're like moving out of relationship or like shifting relationships to different deities or orishas or gods or, or saint or whoever, is ok.

My God is a loving God, and the people that I practice with are loving. What are loving people? In the same way with a parent figure or somebody who loves you like a family member, you can shift something in relationship. Maybe it's like “Oh I thought this, but it's this.” And they will not punish you; they will have grace for you. That informs a lot for me. It was like, “Oh, I'm still living with this fear of this all-powerful God. You have to do it exactly right or he will remember.” But no, as long as there's a conversation, and there's respect at the end of the day. If there's no respect, it is not going to go your way, right? My God is a loving God.

Then, a large part of it is learning. If they want a certain flower, but you only have this kind, I'm assuming that if I'm coming from like a real, honest place and a respectful place, yeah, I honestly think that obviously is intention, but mistakes are going to be made when you're learning anything. So, I don't think they would be the most aggressive about that. The Gods know what we're dealing with; we are piecing together fragmented versions of religions that have been here for thousands of years. Some plants didn't make it past colonialism, some stones did not make it, and things did not make it. We barely escaped colonialism, so I think the Gods are less worried about than you doing this to find your way back home. That is more important than anything.

AD: Once these things find you, then you also take on a responsibility to keep these things alive. So, we don't need to be cursory. It's the intention that matters, cause if you don't have access, you don't have access.

AD: How's your practice connected to your art? How are you really actually connecting? How are you able to allow your practice to show up in art and to connect to an audience?

ADG: I have many different practices. Obviously, as you know, different forms of art and creation and spirit work and things, so I'll talk about the visual practice first. More than that, I'll start with tattooing, specifically. So, with tattoo, something I'll say that's part of my practice is blood magic. Different Central American and Mesoamerican cultures would use different blood related practices to move forward their prayers. I remember one that really stuck with me was people who would cut their hands, then dry it with a paper, and then they would burn that paper. And then that smoke would go into the ancestral realm for them to have as an offering, like a sacrifice. And so then with tattooing, that very much goes hand in hand with it. I haven't done it so much as I've been in this shop, because it doesn't feel like the right home for it. Love the shop, different home. I've done it more when I've done tattoos with people in their homes, or in my home, or even if they take some from the shop. But of course, it's a deep relationship, and there's nobody else really in the shop at that time. So, what I do now more with that is I'll give them the paper that has the stencil before I place the stencil on it. They can do with that what they will. I've done that with my own stuff as I'm tattooing, and as I'm wiping some of those papers, I'll keep off to the side again when the situation, circumstances, and conversation is right, I’ll give that to folks for them to be able to do whatever they will with it. I normally recommend burning it, setting intention in prayer, but also knowing that the skin is open, the body is cut open, and energy is being released, things are being released. So, in this moment, what can you spiritually let go of? What is no longer serving you? What are you surrendering? And then, in the same way the ink is being imbued into your skin, what do you want to imbue this tattoo with? What is the energy that you want to pour into it? So that itself becomes this very spiritual practice of release and transformation, and intention setting, and manifestation. So that's how I carry that in the tattoo realm.

But in terms of the art pieces that I make, the ones that make the most sense to bring in are the altar pieces. I didn't realize that I was creating altars at the beginning, because I was just making things that mattered to me and were visually poetic. The elements that were being brought in were all elements that were important to me; they related to the person, the theme, whatever it was. And it wasn't until after that, when people started calling it altars, that I started realizing it was altars. And so, at that point, these are spaces of worship, these are spaces of coming and leaving prayer, of coming and leaving hope, coming and leaving intention, coming and leaving offerings. A lot of the altars that I've done, especially the larger ones, do have money that is being placed at them. People bring their own things to offer, not just the offerings that I'm incorporating myself. The one that I did for Basil at Scope was entitled, “Hope Is But a Dream Is But a Plan Yet Put to Action,” And with that one, I was tapped via Amnesty International to create it for the folks who are currently detained at Alligator Alcatraz. Then, for me, I can't talk about the people without talking about the land. So, the land that's been housing these forms of harm and colonial harm is indigenous land, which is not accessible to the Indigenous peoples. This is land where the Africans escaped to during moments of revolution and independence, and all these things are now being used to harm these migrant folks, these workers, these Black and brown peoples in the same way. This is the title, but these things have been ongoing. So, for me, it's elevating these people so they can be seen and loved and respected. And so, you can't force somebody to see you as human, is what I'm slowly coming to terms with. I want to change people's minds, but some people are too far gone is what a lot of the conversations have been coming to. I'm still grappling with that reality, but if I remove the need to make people see people as people, then what remains is the people who are suffering. And in this current state, where we don't feel like we have a lot of control or impact, this is the way that I'm able to have impact. I can create this space where you have all these feelings, and you don't know where to go. You can go to church, you can go to here, you can go to the ocean, but this is also a space that is dedicated to this specific theme and topic. So, people who are gathering here are gathering here for a purpose. The conversation that springs out among people there, about their own family members are being detained, about where their family members have been deported to, or about where their family members died while in custody. Or they themselves experienced displacement here in Miami, because it wasn’t just those folks. There were also personal elements from my own experience with displacement here, the home that Monica and I lived in, which we were forcibly removed from. Another home that collapsed, and we were also forcibly removed from. These constant elements of home and harm and accessibility and disposability all merging in one space of care and love and prayer. And so, people are coming to it, whether they know what's happening or not. There are a lot of people who are taking selfies, and they start looking around, and they're like, “Wait, what's going on here? What is this?”

AD: It's deeper than that.

ADG: Exactly, and so being able to be within the art world, the current art world, the current highlighted art world. It's hard to say because so many of our people are creating work that is deeply powerful and deeply profound. Whether it's spiritual or storytelling or archival, they're not all rich artists either. It's more like a baseline reality, the art that sells and things like that, it's the same way we talk about music, it's so devoid of deep intention. Beyond, I want to make this, so I make it, which has its own value, but I think right now, especially, it's always been the case, but especially right now, there can't be things that just exist for existing's sake. It needs to be deeply rooted in purpose. It's unbalanced, because there could be both; I should be able to make things that just explore and be able to make things that are deeply rooted in meaning. But in this current moment, everything is just escaping. How do we anchor in the deep meaning? So, being able to take up space in that way, people really take a halt; it forces people to be embodied. I had a lot of mirrors in that. I use mirrors a lot in my practice, as well as mirror magic, where you see yourself, you are confronted with yourself in this space, and that brings you back to the awareness of your own responsibility, or your own narrative, or your own trauma and harm in this one space, together. But also depending on who you are, who I'm writing this poem to. I want people who are most marginalized to see themselves as venerated, as well. This altar is existing, and you see yourself placed within that altar, so, yes there's a responsibility for us to take action, because if you're a U.S. citizen, then you have privilege, if you're a non-black person, then you have privilege, if you're a cis person, then you have privilege, if you're a light-skinned person, then you have privilege. But it's also very much like, “Yes, you have privilege and responsibility, but you need to see yourself as your godly being.” Because if you believe that you deserve it, then you know that others deserve it. All of this is happening, and then it's an art piece. I insidiously squeeze my way in there to be able to create that Questioning. Questioning what fine art is? Who has access to making? Who has access to these materials to make? Who are venerated as these incredible artists, and what are they doing? And whose culture dominates what we identify as good art or not good art? And who's doing it, because a lot of times, the good art will be regurgitated? People will be like, “Yeah, it looks familiar…” I've seen this with the African masks, Basquiat dupes. Even about veneration, because I think with veneration, we always talk about ancestor veneration, but there's also self here. And then, even descendants that aren't here. I think veneration is interesting because the folks have got a hold of that word, even though it's a neutral thing, as much as a spiritual, it's whatever application it's put through.

So, in terms of looking to my descendants, I've had two abortions. The first one was not one that I was connected with, the second one was when I was very much in love, and there was so much love in my body that I had never experienced. And when I had that abortion, I felt so much grief, because there was so much love in that connection. And so, I consider that unborn child one of my ancestors, because they are no longer here. So, there's also prayer and worship to that being, but I also identify descendants as people who come after me, regardless of if I personally birthed them or not. And I think that my practice is also very intentional. With my altar practice, I'm not going to say I don't see myself making money from it because I have. I don't see myself making money from it the way that maybe other people do through other art practices. Selling can make money off it, but I think that this is something that's going to be studied afterwards.

AD: I think that this is something that people are going to see afterwards, and see themselves, and have them question things, and learn from it, and be able to be an example of disciples. No, no, no. I don't think disciple is a crazy word.

ADG: I feel very honored if that's the word.

JR: They're studying your discipline; therefore, they're disciples. If you think of it that way.

ADG: Yeah, I know, but that’s so profound. We're doing profound things. We are, I'm using I will be studied versus there will be disciples. That respect, the order, especially in some places like Miami, where there are people not wanting an approach an altar, they don't know how to even approach an altar. They don't know how, especially with the intention around specifically making things. That is a deep wound that is in the community. Advertising is a real thing happening here, people don't know how to respond. There will be disciples in all the things that we're doing; we're seeing that now. Even then, if that's the way that we identify it, then there are people whose work I am a disciple of, as well, of course. We're all right, so it's just nice to think of myself in that way, to give myself that gift of, “Yes, this is true.” In the same way, those are the descendants that I also make work for. I'll shout out Felix Gonzalez-Torres, and the way that he uses mundane objects to create these really deep spiritual meanings and represent people who have passed, predominantly gay folks during the AIDS epidemic. Or Betty Saar who's creating these whole-room altar installations that are, again, very connected to her culture, but putting that in a museum was profound. And Ana Mendieta and her earth worship practice, seeing herself, her resemblance, in the land, and that's a big thing as well. These are the people who have helped me get to where I am, and what I'm making, and so I think, undoubtedly, I will have a similar impact on those who come after, who are interested in creating spirit work in an artistic realm. Because all of it is artistic. Again, who defines what art is, what we should sell, what we should buy, and what is best to live in your living room?

JR: Even with folk art, they weren't holding that to the same standards. They were considering it more through an anthropological lens. And now, we're seeing it move into more of “The art spaces,” because they've decided that it's merited. We already knew that. I feel like we all kind of lean toward folk art anyway, it's not that everything needs to be of use, necessarily, nut everybhing has a purpose, and that makes sense.

JR: Moving through those definitions has been really interesting. You're providing something that isn't there; that’s what the whole project has been about. We have found that we have all these things in common, but there wasn't a space to learn that. People may be fearful; they may not know how to approach an altar or even approach anything spiritual. I think a lot of artists make spiritual art, but it may be hard for them to conceptualize that. We're very blessed in our friend group; we all are tapped in. I don't think that other people experience this the way that we experience it. I want to be clear about that because I think even having this conversation would blow a lot of people’s minds. The way that we can all just randomly come together on this Tuesday and talk about spirituality and have a touch point for it. But I'm hoping that can spread.

ADG: I get grounded in the reality that the people that I surround myself with, the people that I want to be surrounded with, and my people and all our Interwoven circles are very special. To use a very simple word, they are very, very special. Those are the only people that I've surrounded myself with; I've been lucky not to have to exist with others, so I sometimes forget that other people don't have access to that. I've been able to find such a home, such a nest, and care for that home. Everybody is caring for the home I'm in community with. I forget not everyone has that. But also, people are finding it, are searching for it.

JR: That two-way street is happening. I don't have to be the one to do this; I just am the one doing it. That’s what I think you're hoping. You are the one to do it from your perspective, and that’s valid, and that has worked, but my hope is that other folks can pick up the practice too. That’s why we're approaching it from  so many different vantage points, trying to have video, writing, and art. Because we are a bunch of Neurodivergent people, and I never want it to be like “We did this. Here you go, “and then it's done. What’s the point of that? Not that everyone is going to have a career as an artist, but that way of doing things kind of keeps it that way.

ADG: Everybody has something to express and share. We learn, seeing is doing. But also, for me, it's really important whenever I discuss eurodiversity to remember the colonial origins of what neurotypicality is because the neurotypical is a white, cis, straight man, so unless you exist under that, unless your identity is that, then who is exactly neurotypical?  What if you didn’t have to perform per capita? I am neurodiverse because I am not like the ruling class. They made me an outsider. So, it would make sense that so many more people who are able to deeply connect with these things would be neurodiverse or Queer. My favorite people are autistic, Queer people because we’re able to see things flow and have freedom and have more ways of expression than just the one way that white, cis, straight men can.

AD: We can actually question it, whether that be because it would be difficult for us not to, or if that's the nature of being Queer. To be Queer is to question. On her podcast, A Little Juju, Juju Bae was talking to another Ifa practitioner, and she was saying, “At the end of the day, white people don't need God in the way that we do.” When you have white supremacy, patriarchy, all those things on your side, you do not need God. You're not praying as hard as us, you're not venerating, you're not trying to search for who you are, because you have been okay with the way things are, because you see yourself everywhere, because everything's made for you. So, girl, that bar dropped.

AD: Do you have any gifts that you think divinely came from God to you?

ADG: Yes, divinely. Yes, my pattern recognition is one of them. But more in a way of connecting people and needs. It's being able to know who can do what with whom. And the where, and the who, and being able to connect, being a connector, being somebody who is able to help the web grow. I think I'm somebody who is able to hold a lot of capacity for grief, for others. And I have an air of safety as well for folks to be able to unmask and to really get into the deep things that are difficult, things that our current reality doesn't make space for. So, whether that is through tattooing, or through sound work, sound baths, or energy with somatic practices, or the altar spaces, or just conversations with my friends, that’s a huge gift. I also have the gift of sight, being able to see things, see truths. I feel like a lot of us have this gift, especially within our circle. But maybe not externally, or maybe they have it, but they haven't tapped into it. I did a lot of praying to be able to see when I was younger. My gifts are being able to see in that way, deep intuition, as well as knowing. With that one, I need to do a little bit better when it's in relation to me. And my connection with nature, I think, is also a gift. I feel like the conversation flows. It is very much like, “Girl, the Earth loves me Dog.” I know that others are also loved, so I'm moving for myself.

JR: Have you always seen them as gifts, because you know we're living in a world that demonizes those qualities.

ADG: They felt like Challenges because there is a sensitivity that's there. But also, if you can see things and you can recognize things that other people can't, then you are seeing the problem, the structures and systems, or patterns, or behaviors, or conversations, or other things that are issues. Similar to when I was younger, I'm like “This doesn't make sense. This is a question that I have.” I am met with, “You have to be removed from the place.” Or I'm banned from it. It's that same kind of narrative. These gifts put me in a space of other. The other is not seen as something that supports; it's seen as something that disrupts.

JR: Whether that's true or not.

ADG: I don't even always think that's the case, but I feel like it is Institutional. So, is it gonna mess up the system? Yeah, for sure. Could it technically benefit you? Yeah. In terms of existing in a society where other things have a lot of control over you, right, you can't unsee it. I think that's something people don't realize. You'll see it, but then you'll always be aware of whatever the pattern is. That's the challenging part if you are working to participate, which we all have to do to some degree. That's why I'm very lucky to have carved the niche that I have carved. Also, I think another one of my gifts is the way I speak.

I think the way that I communicate, whether it's the tenor of my voice or what I'm saying or both, is able to really captivate people. Maybe if I were trying to talk about tech, that would be its own power, but if I'm trying to speak about love, and all of what I do is connected with love, then that is also one of the gifts I have. I have to be able to help people connect with themselves.

AD: How does that show up for you as a daily practice or a daily ritual?

ADG: I'm still working on my daily rituals. It has been challenging to give myself these daily rituals, because I think if I really had the rituals that I desire and I practice them, that would catapult me to a new level of self-love, to another level of how I interact with the world. Maybe there are two things happening: one of fear of tapping in so intentionally, because then everything changes. There's like a way stricter way of existing. Also, I think there's a little bit of a moment of like, “Am I deserving of anything that comes from being a marginalized individual?” Society tells us that we don't deserve these things, so that's an ongoing combative thing. Do I deserve to have pleasures and joys in these ways, and wealth and stability? I am moving through that, but thankfully, that's been something that has weakened as a barrier; there’s still the fear of the change. I think because when I really tap in, sacrifice is not a sacrifice because it's an offering in another direction. So, the practices are not really too present in the room, but I know what they are. Right now, I'm in the space of having moved through the things that wouldn't allow me to get there. I have my intention for this specific year, with all the deep internal reflection and work that I've done. During that period between the Gregorian calendar new year to the lunar new year is my transitionary period, so ideally it feels like there's a lot of fear in me as I'm naming it or like a lot of hesitation in me as I'm naming it, but ideally by the time that the lunar new year comes around I would be stepping into that space of not taking any of that shit from myself, because it starts there, and then seeing how that trickles into all other elements of my life. I know that I have power in the way that I do, but what if I really got down to it: drinking the waters that I needed to, doing the love offerings and the candle work, and all these things. It got me to who I was before, during, and shortly after the pandemic, when I deeply dove into practice, and I feel like there's been a stagnancy in my spiritual growth, but also other growths, because I haven't tapped in the same way. I saw how much changed from then to whoever I was after. So, I feel like that leap is a little daunting. The pandemic pushed me into that, but I would say that the current political state is pushing me into that now. It wasn't like the lights were off, but the lights are brightening up, and I'm feeling it internally. I might as well actually treat myself the way that I speak about others treating themselves. The leading by example thing that we talked about. You gotta be the revolution. It has to live within you in that way, right? What kinds of harms would I allow to occur? Is there a hard boundary about it?  What kind of ways am I bending, how am I a little bit unsure, but would that still exist if I was so sure of my worth, my value, my power? I am deserving because I'm giving it to myself. That's a practice still in building. People don’t always do what they preach for themselves, but we have the discernment to still hold them in a higher regard in whatever way. But that can be undermined by not respecting yourself. How are you living in a way that upholds what you're telling people about? One of my things is that I see myself as God. I see there are little shoots of light to others that I know that I give, there is a part of my heart that is not for myself. What if I gave myself that? Where I always struggle is knowing other people's intentions. Do they want fame, and they won't pay for this and that and the other, versus I want fame because I want a platform to be able to, like, share what I care about? I'm always worried that I'm doing things in a selfish way, and not a selfish way like, “I choose me.” But selfish, like, “I don't care about others.” But if I could harness that for myself and be that example, an embodiment of godliness in the way that I practice godliness. What kind of impact would that have on others as well? I think we've seen it throughout history that any great leader has been able to mobilize because they were the thing. Jesus had disciples because he was embodying a King, and not even be a savior. You can teach somebody and tell somebody that this is what they need to do, but if you cannot embody it, if you can't be the light or be the vision of what God is, how do you want to teach somebody about God? So, you could tell them, but they're seeingv what you do? Or they will tell the next person, and then the next person will tell the next person; it trickles down. It can feel like, “You don't tell unless of being asked because you may have all the answers, but what's the point of preaching for folks who don't want to listen?” We should be bringing political education to the space. It was worse for me at first. I was pushing like, “We should force them to learn. This should be the basics, everybody should be doing it.” But you can walk the person to water, but if somebody doesn't want to learn, they are never going to learn. They may read the things, but there won't be an active engagement with it, because you're telling somebody versus the person, out of their own volition, coming to it. I believe, “Don't push God onto to somebody.” So, in that same way, I instead, try to pass it on. I think caring for others is usually caring for yourself. Rather than telling somebody else how to be better,  look at yourself and do that demanding? I see myself as God because that's within my own practice, but also myself as a mirror to others. If I'm able to achieve those things and embody those things, others will see that in me. Maybe they’d never really see that in themselves, right? Be naturally curious. Fam is a neutral thing. We have seen it be bad, the issues. So, you have to be grounded, but who's telling you that you are living in a reality, who is reminding you what really is important? Because we've seen the bastardization of fame and those are the most highlighted examples, we don't want to do that. But you’re not like that if you have cultivated the people around you who will bring you back. There needs to be a belief that I have done the work to not be that kind of person, and to be surrounded by those who have also done the work. So, it is straddling that fine line between like, “I can care for myself, and I am blessed to be able to have the resources to do it and I am deserving of it" and also “Some shit is just does not some shit does not pray on my on my success.”

AD: What makes you feel closer to God?  

ADG: Being in the ocean. Being near mountains, I look at them and the fog that collects at the top of them. Spirit is here, right? Nature, being by waterfalls, being by trees, being by anything that makes me feel small and connected. I like going to waterfalls when there’s a tree right in the middle of it. I was standing like that tree and thinking this tree has been here for how long? It's been here, and this is what it's been experiencing this whole existence. My Friendships, deep friendships, being able to feel loved, give love, to be seen, to have so much like deep belly laughter, and deep treasuring. I feel like my people love me, and I know that my people feel like I love them. So, my friendships. Dancing helps me feel closer and connected to God. Building altars helps me feel more connected to God. Prayer, candle work, and mirror work all help you feel closer to God. When I cook for myself, when I put the time and love in, that helps me feel closer to God. Certain songs, music, film, and great art. And knowledge, I feel like there's a lot of research that has happened. When a truth is uncovered. Oh my god, it feels like the spark of life is in me.

That helps me feel closer to God. And singing, whether it is silly, funny, joyful singing, or you are feeling something and you're singing and crying, it helps you feel closer to God. Friends cooking meals for me helps me feel closer to God. But again, because of how I practice, like I am God, it's anything that brings you back to me. I started doing this work with Media, who is an artist. He was an underage person when he crossed the border as an unaccompanied minor, so that informs his practice a lot. Then his mom died of cancer, and he had cancer, so he did all these kinds of really toxic ways of healing, and that led him to sound healing, to carry him past. He recovered from cancer, and a lot of his installation work, or his sculptural work, is creating the stands for the Gongs to do sound baths with. So originally, I was tapped to help him find an undocumented person to work with, using museum money to pay and undocumented folks for their labor to help create a piece. When he found out that I was a performance artist, he asked me to participate. I had a sound practice before; I had different elements before that. I understood intention to be able to guide, but it wasn't until doing sound baths in that way that I was able to see the power of myself as a conduit. Specifically, I know one of my gifts is being a conduit for energy and being able to help folks get to where they want to go.

So, I'm not like, “I am healing you.” It is more like, “We are together, moving from your intentions of where you're trying to get to.” A lot of my sound practice has been based on research on vibrations and attunement. That has been based on knowing intimately the history of the instruments that I'm working with, the culture that they come from, and, also, their intended purpose in these kinds of cultures, in addition to the materials they're actually made out of, knowing whether they're metals or a stone or seeds. Not only knowing what they mean to their cultures, but to me as well. Always, for me, it's really important to explain to the person I am working with. Sometimes you'll go into a sound bath, and they’ll pray for you, and it'll help you relax. That’s not to say that it doesn't work, but, for me, I want you to be an active participant in your healing journey. So, I'll explain to you a little bit about Western medicine elements of  where these energy points are in the and then we'll ask you questions, “What you are looking from it? What you're trying to gain from it? What words you want me to be thinking about and imbuing into the experience? Then it becomes like a faucet is how I think about it. We're just like an open the faucet and then the sound is coming, but the intention flows through me through the ether through God. You’re God through whatever it is, through the earth and the Sun, usually through the Sun. And then closing it out after is a conversation, versus being like, “What did you experience?

It's “What came up for you?” “What visions did you see?” What colors? Did your body feel different things like that?” And then, after having done somatics for several years, and being a receiver of that kind of healing, being able to bring somatic embodiment into it, to be guiding them in where to be in their body, what to see, and what to know. I am going to question what they see. I'm moving it through that way. My intention is to be able to help people feel more embodied, to be able to process things that logically they may have gotten to, but more deeply, they need to surrender into. Or, you might not even know what it is, you are just feeling things, and then meet yourself in that moment and are able to be like, “This is grief,” “Oh, this is fear,” or “Oh, this is not even my trauma, this is ancestral trauma.” Who has access to being embodied and to feel safe in their bodies? Versus those who, just by existing their body, experience threat, or there is demonization, or there is rejection, or there is unsafety. You can't promise that somebody's going to be safe in their bodies? I can't do that, but I can help you feel in your body and feel like you are in control of the way that you move in the world. I bring that power to you or help you get that power back into yourself. And then, when these things happen, how do you move through them? How do you engage with them? How do you process them?

AD: Are you in search of a spiritual home? Maybe you'd like to build your own? Let's envision that a bit.

ADG: So, I don't necessarily have a spiritual home beyond the home that I exist in, because that's where my spirit exists, and my body. I remember when I was younger, obviously, my dad wasn't Catholic, so that's why he wasn't going to church, but I remember when I would ask my dad why he wouldn't, he would say he is always connected to God, he doesn't have to go somewhere to have a relationship to God because God is with him and God is in him. I think the reason why I don't lean into a physical spiritual home outside of me is that if you have something like that and there is rupture in it or harm comes to it, then it's like, “Well then, where is my new spiritual home?” Versus that spiritual home being within. That might be something that's Ancestral from being more nomadic peoples, but that also might be coming from the colonial harm. We had these temples, and they were placed over. Now, Catholic monuments exist right where we had these spiritual homes, these specific trees, these specific lakes, these specific mountains, this specific basis. This virtual home must exist within a spiritual home. So, wherever I move, that is a spiritual home. When I got my car, that's my spiritual home. I'm tapped in and intentional with it. But in that same breath, I think another spiritual home would be my altars. Whether they are my practice altars or whether they're my personal life altars or whether I go to the beach and I create a small little altar, I think that is like a moment where I plant part of my spirit in, so this is imbued with a kind of spiritual home. Envisioning a spiritual home outside of that, we have this land, and here's where we have our artist residencies, and this is where we cook, commune, and eat together. And this is where we have our garden. It would be nice if there were a space where people could come and take prayer, too. If I'm envisioning what it looks like, it looks like there are either no walls or it's surrounded fully by windows. Maybe it’s like a terracotta color. The windows are open; there’s light linen fabric blowing in the breeze. There are not really too many places to sit, because you're meant to be on the ground. There are mirrors, there are plants, there's fruit, and there's access to incense and candles. There's water, there's a lot of drinking water. There's a lot of like falling water, rocks, and other natural elements. There are floor cushions; you're meant to be grounded. You're supposed to live close to the earth, right? Somewhere you can lie, and lounge, and there are cushions and everything's earth colors. That's what my ideal, envisioned spiritual home would look like.  

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AD: What are some important milestones you have reached in your practice?

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ADG: I'm not sure about it, because I think a milestone feels very definitive here, right? I think for me, even now, I'm stepping into whatever my next level is. I'm in the microwave cooking right now. And it's like happening over some months. I feel like a milestone was reached in rejecting Catholic Catholicism. I think that was a huge milestone for me. And then the milestone of seeing God within myself, trusting myself, listening to myself, and honoring the wisdom that I carry, not because I'm carrying it, but because it's in practice with  respect for those who came before and knowledge that is internal and also gained via those around me. So those are also big elements, being willing to work in tattooing, sound, and being able to say, “This is an offering I can share with others.” Currently, I'm in the development of a milestone. I feel there will be more as well. 
I don't know if there's ever an endpoint. As much as I desire a point, where it is like, “Oh, that's it. Work is done.”
If that ever happens, you just lay it down and are like “Oh, this is a new stage of what needs to get done.” But I feel like I'm creating and getting to the point of a deeper level of intention and respect and self-devotion and Godliness through that.