Phaissa Verdilus (he/they) 25 

Jasmine Respess:  What's your pronouns, things like that? 

Phaissa Verdilus: All right. my name is Bus. my pronouns are he interchangeably. I am 24 years old. Phaissa Verdilus: Yes, soon to be 25. 

Jasmine Respess: And where are you from specifically in this situation? 

Jasmine Respess: Where have you been living in Miami or South Florida? 

Phaissa Verdilus: I have lived in Miami Shores and I have lived here in West Park Hollywood. Jasmine Respess: And where are your ancestors from and your family and my family and I for the most part were born in Haiti. 

Jasmine Respess: What would you define your religion, your practice or your spirituality or your spiritual practice? how would you define that? 

Phaissa Verdilus: That's something I'm still working on for myself, but for the purposes of just being straightforward with the layman I say it's everything Christianity should have been but what I would say is Catholicism, but in a  way that's like everything Christianity should have been wasn't. yeah, I don't know. It's a question I'm still  working on answering for myself. 

Jasmine Respess: And that's perfectly fine. that's kind of what the project is about and a lot of people's  answers mirror that in one way or another. but I guess one way to think about that is what does that look  in practice? what are some examples of what that looks like to you in practice? 

Phaissa Verdilus: the primary focus isn't necessarily Catholicism as dictated by the white church. It's predominantly Catholicism as imposed upon people of the global south specifically  around Central and Latin America. and what it looks like for me there are certain tenants within  Christianity that we are told to follow. So it's about morality. It's about a personal sense of right and  wrong. It's about showing up for others and feeding strangers. It's about compassion and practicing that as a philosophy. I think throughout my life  that has changed from periods to periods as people grow and… 

Jasmine Respess: Through Christianity and Catholicism, who do you look to help you to find these things?  Who are some of your mentors or some of your influences in your I guess creation of your spirituality or  practice? 

Phaissa Verdilus: Versions of them die and they're born and they evolve and go forth. I think for me and for the majority of my family it starts with my grandmother who is  still alive right now and how well she herself is not Catholic but she is Christian and how she has just kind  of been throughout her entire life. She grew up in Milo, Haiti. And throughout the neighborhood, I mean,  my family has lived here in the United States for quite a while now. And we still get strangers from who  will hear my mother's last name and ask her where she's from and they'll ask her directly if XYZ person is  her mother and she'll say yes. And the stories I hear her are stories about her kindness and how she always went  above and beyond for everyone around her. How she took it upon herself to take care of every person she  came across, even when they were strangers. I think growing up, even though I hadn't met her, hearing the  stories about how everyone else resonated with her it was very touching. and there was also my aunt. she has since passed, but from the  ages of six until I was 10 until she passed, she was like a secondary mother to me. She was a nurse at one of the main clinics, And again patients would just see me and  recognize that we would hang out at the pharmacy together because she was involved directly in the  pharmacy. she was running some of their social programs and everyone knew who she was. simply  because she's someone who takes that step above and beyond. if she knows people cannot afford  medicine, she pays for it out of her own pocket. She helps people get in touch with doctors that would  give them free consultations and primary care, whether that be officially at a hospital or at a privatelyun  clinic, things like that. When you're living in a land where people don't really have access to the resources to  the degree that these things are lifesaving. And I think for me as a kid growing up, watching how all of  them moved, my mother included, it was really hard to ignore the impact their kindness had on people.  And even though there were political stressors that led my family towards Christianity to the degree that  they have attached to Christianity today. There were certain aspects to the way they were helping their patients, not just through  western medicine, but with plant medicine specifically that was a lot more accessible and enriching to the  community that also resonated. And those kind of knowledge can only be accessed through kind of 

ancestral passing, it's something that was taught to her by her mother who was taught by her mother who  was taught by her mother who was taught by her mother before her. And these are things that are also  criminal because everyone adds on to that knowledge. 

Jasmine Respess: That's something it varies from person to person that we've talked to, but that's probably more akin to how Akai and I would probably define our practices or  what we would consider them. especially that idea of community and the religion being the values as they  are. how they show up for other people. the action of it, but also the intention of it, I think is something  interesting that you're pointing out and your spiritual touch point is really interesting. but I understand what you mean more  when you're talking about what Christianity should have been because that was kind of the whole point,  Right. 

Phaissa Verdilus: Because when you grow up and your entire life you're lectured about the Bible and you read the stories in the Bible as  you are often encouraged to do. the core tenants of Christianity are kindness, communal care,  consideration and compassion. That's it. Those are like the driving forces. Just be a good person and do  good on to others. 

Jasmine Respess: And when you're talking about your grandma being like a really good person or your  aunt being like the best person, that's very similar to my family. my grandparents are the best people I  know because they've kind of applied these actions of Christianity. It's not really the Christianity itself. It's like the actions that they do. But no, I think  that's very relatable. And I know we've talked before about how that can be weird when it comes to  querness and stuff like that because it doesn't really align, but yeah. 

Phaissa Verdilus: Yeah, but more specifically though to get some of the more traditional aspects where my  family would practice growing up for example my mom I never understood why but when we were into the  hair salon which we did religiously every weekend on Saturday that's what we would do because neither  of us knew really how to take care of our hair and anytime we got haircuts or anytime anyone was involved with our hair. First of all, we had one person  who did our hair and that was a trusted friend who happened to also be an ian. someone like she knew  growing up and she's known well and that has always been the case and she would just always collect our hairs and I never like to like a compulsive degree and I  never understood why until I would ask her and it's for protection and little things collecting your hairs and burning them once a month together these are like my grandma telling me you never eat or drink anything without baptizing it first  by which she means either saying a prayer adding salt to it. it's not like a written guided philosophy as  much as it's like nuggets of knowledge you are imparted with on how to live life as best as you can. 

Jasmine Respess: Yeah, I completely know what you mean because when I started studying or looking at  researching into our spiritual traditions in Jamaica or whatever, the people that believe that most are  always like the elders or who are more I guess superstitious or something like they'll still do the practices  for protection even while still really engaging with Christianity whatever form that may be and that's always been interesting, because people who just don't have that type of  spirituality just don't care, they're not going to be doing those acts because it's like even if you've chosen  to chosen is a strong word, but even if you've moved towards Christianity or something that maybe those aren't innately a part of it, they're innately a part of you.  

Phaissa Verdilus: As far as I'm concerned, those are not these are not just Christian values but these are ancestral values because everything that's documented about how  indigenous people have moved with colonizers pre violence supports that. And yeah, I think those are the parts I feel like that really push the aspect of traditional  Christianity backwards because when you talk to people in the west who practice Christianity, that is not  all their connection to it unless they members of the cloth. 

Christianity is practiced in the south obviously has to do with West African practice  and the reason why they have a more energetic way of praising or celebrating or whatever has to do with  that because you can see more northern based Christian religions are more stoic and then I think  Catholicism is a very interesting part of that because it's like there's still those rituals, but then there's all 

the other ways that's been melded into indigenous practice or whatever, So, that's always interesting to  me. 

Phaissa Verdilus: I was very young, somewhere around the age of six, sevenish and I was at the beach with my father and I was in the ocean at some point and I was  really young and did not understand suicidability and ideiation and what that presented as. But I do recall  being very depressed specifically around the things that were going on in my personal and socio life I  guess because my country was under occupation and that comes with its own ramifications and I was in the water kind of like praying for death oblivion and it just violently rejected my  body to a degree that when I'm at the beach in the water still as an adult today to  some degree my presence isn't always welcomed in the water. 

Jasmine Respess: What would you say is the  history of your practice or what do you think is something when you were talking about you think a lot  about how folks interact is indigenous ways or something like what's a specific one that you  think of when you are considering your practice or something like that. 

Phaissa Verdilus: When I think about agriculture specifically and the way we interact with food, I think for me that's a pretty huge component. from the  way the food is grown, the way the diversity in the food we're eating and who's taking care of the food  supply and how they're being shuffled to us, paddles, all of these things like there is it's such a disconnect  I think for me. I was brought up with the idea that we are very much so connected to everything we  interact with and everything that goes into our bodies. And so, growing up in Haiti, when you want to  have chicken and you go to the market, unless you're going to a restaurant, if you want to have chicken at  home, you have to go to the market and buy live chicken you have to really interact with that process even if you're not like raising the chickens  or whatever. That commends a certain amount of respect for what you're eating. That simply  pulling up to the supermarket and grabbing a slab of meat from the shelf will always deprive you from. So, I think yeah, for me, I was raised in a cult in an environment within a family and in a culture where  you plant your medicine and you plant your food and you nurse it and you take care of it. It then steps into  your life and takes care of you. I think for me specifically it's interpolated specifically to my family history because my grandmother was a farmer. It's also specific to my family history in the sense that manyers I have are involved in  the healthcare industry And is also specific to my experiences growing up in Haiti. And so yes, it is also  cultural. 

Jasmine Respess: When did you move to Haiti? At what age? 

Phaissa Verdilus: I moved from Haiti when I was, let's see, 11 or 12. So, somewhere between 2011, 2012.  

Jasmine Respess: Yeah. All right. that's just good for context. so when you're engaging with your  spirituality, your rituals, whatever that looks like, can you talk to your family about that or do you  feel comfortable talking to them about that? 

Phaissa Verdilus: To a certain extent, what I was saying earlier, when it comes to growing stuff, we have a garden, my mom,  my grandma and I I think that is the least contentious point about our relationship, the three of us. and it's  the point that kind of brings us together. When we have really serious conflict to resolve, we usually do it in the garden because I think subconsciously the three of us feel more serene and calm and grounded in  that environment. But certain knowledges like things about how to grow my food growing it and  medicine and some of the stuff that we use day and how they are important for health. Additionally, I only  know if you don't like people badmouthing you and Blair like gossiping about you to burn clove because  my grandma taught me and that happened because we accidentally planted clothes in the backyard,  but also no because part of my spirituality I hunt sometimes and my mom does not enjoy what that looks like here in the United States cuz you have to  people who are willing to drive you into the wilderness for the purposes of that. And that because I live in  a racialized body and also because my body is perceived as that of a woman, there are safe risks for me and she's not the biggest fan of that. also a huge part I feel interpolated with that is and it's deeply  connected to my sex like my sexuality and my gender identity. I think for me there is an inherent tie with the way I move in my spiritual practices in my  lesbianism. 

Jasmine Respess: What does that look like within your practice, specifically within the realm of voodoo?

Phaissa Verdilus: Within Catholicism there are different saints and they have dominion over different aspects of  daily life. Certain so that kind of theory also exists within voodoo and it also exists within the  law and specifically as it pertains to that there is a law that works specifically with the quer people and it's  commonly understood as illegal herself has different phases, different different presentations, and interacts directly with querness and transness and  masculinity and femininity and also different titles and roles people part undertake within queerness.  there's an aspect to Ezuli that's like the nurturer ie the protect Ursley the source of ancestral knowledge  there she has many different faces. 

Phaissa Verdilus: Bringing it back to bring tie specifically to me, when I think about my philosophies and what they're grounded on and basically they're  grounded in my wanting to be the kind of person that I can be proud of and that's also tied to my sexuality  because I do not exist in a vacuum. I can't separate my gender and sexuality from the essence of who I  am. It's impossible. And within lesbianism itself and the way masculinity specifically is embodied in  lesbianism, it's kind of as the role of like a nurturer and a protector.  When you are in queer spaces, the people who are and historically as well, not just  contemporarily, the people who are doing bodyguards, the people who are setting up systems to take  care of people dying with AIDS, the people who are setting up communications so that people who may  not be in certain bars may still have access to them and so they can call in and still feel a sense of community. These people were lesbians. so was Marshia P. Johnson. so was Bessie  and so many other people we think of as liberators. I think even when you think about femininity and  feminine rage and how fem butch relationships are documented, there's always a sense of nurture and  protection that comes into it and I think that also manifests in my practice. I feel like it is my duty  and my honor and part of my calling as a person and as a spiritual person to take care of my community  to show up for the people I not only shake ass with or kiss on the dance ever, but consider Ken And I think  just voodoo has been a source of liberation for my people, just like voodoo is a safe space for queerness specifically in Haiti. I can't attest to the  rest of the world because I haven't lived in other spaces where voodoo is practiced like that. But I think it is interpolated and if you want to zoom out past which is like the dwah that  oversees queerness and queer people when you look at how the other dwas manifest in mount people it's  all very gender bendy gender f***** and gender who gives a s*** and It's hard to look at these  philosophies and not also see myself reflected. It's hard to look at the stories in the Bible when they tell you that Sarah was having a  hard time conceiving. And so she offered her concubine to her husband. As a polyamorous person and not my practices in my life reflected. It's hard to read  stories about virgin birth and how Jesus is the son, the father, and the holy spirit and not feel like my  gender identity is perceived correctly. 

Jasmine Respess: Do you have a space that you could consider a spiritual home?

Phaissa Verdilus: That's the thing. So right now I have people and the fact that people has forced me to have to consider  what I consider home like is and as a person who living in a diaspora I've had to wrestle with that what is  home because my home country where I was born where I spent the first half of my  life is technically not home anymore because I'm too much of a foreigner for the  country where I live as well for so many different reasons. I think I have people that I can call on to people  from different practices with different perspectives who I can ask for guidance. I have a couple people  who have thankfully been also initiated into Voodoo if I want more specifically guided knowledge as it  pertains to me. And thankfully they're all queer. 

Jasmine Respess: What we're trying to do is even rooted in spaces as well is because a lot of us are  getting to that point where we do have connections with folks but not necessarily like physical spaces  and there that's for many reasons obviously but that's either something we adapt to, and I think we have in  these certain ways like you're talking about, but hopefully we can hold on to those spaces create some too, despite things like gentrification. 

Phaissa Verdilus: That's a really big problem here in South Miami specifically. Because there are so many people from so many different backgrounds here who pass  themselves off as mentors. You really have to use discernment before frequenting certain spaces like white face cannot tell me my ancestral practices like I will not tolerate that.

Jasmine Respess:  

Jasmine Respess: Yeah. Yeah. And I think everyone we've spoken to has a version of that kind of either  story or trepidation. Even folks that maybe in certain communities do they have the best intentions and  whatnot. So it can be difficult especially when people are searching for new ways or not even new ways  returning to ways or kind of like adding on like you mentioned before they do have to be careful because  especially in any this is how colds happen but when you're searching for something that's a vulnerability  unfortunately … 

Phaissa Verdilus: You're searching for big answers, too. That's also and you should really be trepidacious of anyone who comes and says they have them,  but that takes discernment and it takes wisdom that comes from living and whatnot. So yeah,  I don't fault people. 

Phaissa Verdilus: I think also sometimes it's not just about cults. Sometimes we as individuals have to be  mindful about how we're presenting ourselves, our amount or our level of knowledge, skill sets to people because I have witnessed parties around Miami centered around spirituality and  everyone is a beginner. No one has a guide who is seasoned and experienced. Everyone is kind of figuring it out. And what happens there, it's within just the ignorance in and of itself, there's such a big  opportunity, a big window for there to be appropriation, misrepresentation, misunderstandings, and it's  just unnecessary. But yes, a lot of times people are just kind of predatory of people who are in vulnerable  mental and emotional spaces like you were saying. There's things that come from ignorance things that come, not fromdueling, but from practices that have different things that you shouldn't necessarily conflate with each other, they are not complimentary to each other. 

Phaissa Verdilus: Yeah. And there are other practices outside of voodoo or Haitian voodoo that are also very centered in blackness and African and are rich in  African traditions as well. and some of them are very compatible and the thing about the safety isn't just  for the morality of it all because that branch is very important we can log in your but also about personal  safety because even for example, there are aspects of voodoo, santaria and dambala that are compatible. The entities you're working specifically may not be. And you are opening yourself up to God knows what. And that's something that people need to be  mindful of: Who they're calling upon and how they enter work with not just their ancestry but also with other entities they may be working with because also different stages of your life require that you  call on other people. 

Phaissa Verdilus: I was at a art expo with Danny for Eve's  Estime which was being put on display at the public libraries for the Miami date county last season I  believe. And within the film documentary they were showing they discussed this at length specifically  within Haiti and it's sociopolitical shifts the way the depictions of voodoo and the entities in voodoo were  depicted had to be appropriated and shifted and reclaimed so many times in so many ways that when you really take the time to  ponder the timeline of it all feels and an insane amount of change because most of it was happening from the 1900s until the early 2000s. And that has shifted iconography by so much. And I think that's a smaller version of  what you're seeing with the Capoera situation. 

Jasmine Respess: Mhm. Yeah, that makes sense. It's like that that would even over there it's I get what  you're saying that shift to the idea of that even being just public kind of stuff just every day runs so  counter to why these practices even were created and that if you really think of timeline that's so  short for that to have Mhm. 

Phaissa Verdilus: When you think about it, these practices are tied to people and specific  countries and specific nations and specific tribes, when they are undergoing whether that's political  pressure or religious persecution or a mixture of both. For the survival of their culture, they have to kind of find ways to keep the spirit alive. but without getting in trouble. You  know what I mean? That's reflected here because when you think about it, of course now the practice of  capab is different and the way it's being presented is different because you're living in the imperial core. You can't start off bat with the orishas. Either people will look at you like you're some religious woo nut and not take you  seriously or people will you off hand because they have different religious practices get boycotted  and you have to shut your doors. You have to be more innocuous about how you're presenting  information to people. 

Jasmine Respess: And I think the interesting part for me professionally is that this type of indigenous  knowledges and ancestral knowing are it's a growing genre, but we're obviously going through this at  least here a conservative cultural shift situation. But at the same time, those books in my world, in my  work are more popular than ever. So it's kind of the same push and it makes sense a lot of people are flocking towards spirituality and more indigenous  practices right now because when s*** hits the fan, that's what keeps people alive. That's what survival is  about. in most of the countries, specifically black nations that you have seen have successful movements against their oppressors were deep in their spiritual bags. 

Phaissa Verdilus: What leads to that precipice are all the small revolutionary acts that lays the  foundation. And everyone likes to envision the end like the finality but no one likes to really envision what  the labor to get it started and keep it going and keep it the flame alive looks like. And it looks like harm reduction. the people who were braiding corns into their braids were not necessarily trying to revolutionize  the world as much as they were trying to reduce the potential for harm and starvation. The people who were braiding maps in the hair were trying to keep their  loved ones safe or strangers a lot like who came to them safe. That's what revolution is based on. The more revolutionary act isn't to be the loudest necessarily, although that's necessary, too. But who protects the person who's loud once they're  done being loud? 

Jasmine Respess: Because people think hierarchy, you know what I mean?  They're like, I want to the highest point. 

Phaissa Verdilus: Yeah. I'm like you have more in common with them than you have in common with  empire. Maybe keeping cigarettes even if you don't smoke because you can't afford to give  everyone $5, but you can afford to give them a cigarette. Maybe your practice is telling people how to  keep their blood pressure down with sour sop if they cannot afford to get levaseten.

Jasmine Respess: I think that ties into another question. the question is phrased when did you realize you  had a gift? But in talking to you, I really think it's for example, my gift would be the wherewithal to do this  type of work, to research, to write things. You know what I'm saying? But it could be a spiritual gift in  literally the sense of I don't know having really good intuition, having a really close connection to  ancestors or it could be something like organizing or something like that. 

Jasmine Respess: What would you define and you can have multiple as a gift and when did you kind of come to that or realize you had that or really engage with that?

Phaissa Verdilus: I think my writing helps me a lot. I say my writing is the gift simply because It helps me process gain clarity and that's  integral for having a touchstone with my morals, having a touchstone with the guiding voice in my head  telling me to turn right instead of turning left, it helps keep me grounded in something other than panic, which leaves room for me to be past just survival. Sometimes people think of their gift as what they can give others  rather than what they give themselves so they may show up for others. I think for me that because  without it I can't hear myself. I am a mess. 

Jasmine Respess: Yeah, that's definitely something that I have to work on and something that I really  admire in other people and notice, because I think also when you're perceived a certain way, I don't think  people think of me that way, but I know that I'm doing a lot of work externally, whatever that may look like,  And I think you're right writing not necessarily to it's always communication but a different kind of  communication I think is something I wouldn't necessarily thought of but I agree.

Phaissa Verdilus: Overall, I would say it's communication, but specifically for me, I think what is the  writing aspect of my communication, but the thing that keeps me alive is my mouth.

Jasmine Respess: I think to me through this process what I'm drawn to and this seems this is just  something I'm telling you but the different ways in which people communicate successfully. I think there's  so many different gifts, but honestly, if I really sat here and thought about it, they kind of do all come back to some kind of communication, whether it's ancestors with each other with literally the elements like you're talking  about gardening and all that stuff. It really comes back to that and I think that in itself is against capitalism  and all that individualistic stuff. So it's like even speaking with yourself, whatever that means is  communal with yourself, especially when talking about identities and the thing these little things I do in my life I think have guided me toward people. 

Phaissa Verdilus: You know what I mean? planting and gardening is the thing that has strengthened my  relationship to my neighbors. Now I have a next door neighbor I go hunting with. I have an next door neighbor who actively keeps an eye out on the neighborhood. We  have a storm. they have a backup generator. We have stoves. You know what I mean? And it's that same communication keeps me in touch with people I care about. It's the  thing that puts me in connection with people I care about. so many of the people I've come to learn and  love as family, it was because they run into me and they heard me speak and they felt compelled to speak  to me for whatever reason or we were at an event and I complimented someone they heard in passing  and we became friends that way. 

Jasmine Respess: What are specific things you do  like daily that make you feel closer to God, spirit or what have you? 

Phaissa Verdilus: That's an interesting for me. I think my morning doesn't start until I'm outside and I get a little bit of sun on my face  or I get a little bit of sun, from my room, you know what I mean? It's integral to have some time to just listen to birds and the trees and just the wind  howling. I think that gives me a chance to just catch my breath. Yeah. I think for me God exists a little bit  in everything and I think the biggest part way I really see and interact with that on a daily is how I interact  with myself, how I inter my loved ones, you know what I mean? I think for me checking in and making sure that okay I know XYZ is for example I know it's Thursday and it's my  friend's shot day and they do not enjoy poking themselves with needles just I know I'm off today. Do you  want to drive by so I can do your shot for you?  These little things I don't know that they make me feel connected to something bigger  than just myself and they make me feel accountable to something bigger. 

Jasmine Respess: I love that word accountable. I've been really ruminating on that one. yeah, because  especially in spiritual spaces, there can be a spiritual bypassing that makes you unaccountable to anyone  really, but that's not really it's supposed to be. So, it's interesting to watch. It's very similar to the way  people use therapy language or something, especially because I work in that space. I'm always alert to  that, and what we're talking about harm reduction because harm reduction is also successful conflict or  whatever or that kind of thing which obviously has limitations but I also think we've just gone to the point  where you're f*** all that so I think that's always interesting. 

Phaissa Verdilus: And that account is what creates the intimacy in my relationships. It's that sense of interdependence. I think living in this country really it was the biggest  culture shock was the lack of communal dependence for me I was raised by several people and the lack of presence of in that sense or the lack of safety of it for me because I still  have it here in the United States but I can't lean into it the way I should because I'm queer and it's the only way I know how to live my life in a way that feels in accordance to  me and that honors me and that respects me is that way and therefore I have to create that with myself.  So that accountability is what creates that level of intimacy because it's one thing to say I'm here for you. It's another thing to pick up the phone and say hey when you were speaking I heard that  you said you were uncomfortable and as someone cares about you I would like to do something about it.  Those are two very different experiences. It comes back to the sense of accountability cuz if you really truly feel accountable to  the other person you're in that relationship with whether it's friendship business partnership romantic  partnership etc. Even if you're upset, even if you are navigating the feeling of I think they hate me, there  still needs to be an ability to table that and shove it and listen past that fear and that shame.  

Jasmine Respess: Do  you have specific milestones in your practice? do you have specific practices around death and grieving,  specific practices around birth? Are there moments or something that you're like, we do this at this time  or I do this at this time or… 

Phaissa Verdilus: For me, my practices are mostly around grief like the one I'm with because I've had a lot of it growing up and I've seen it both as laid out ancestrally and  as I understand it. And so during time of funerals like you wear all black and part that's grieving you're not  supposed to be doing manual labor. You're not supposed to be cooking and actively working. In Haitian culture the first couple weeks when there's a death in the family basically  whoever is their friend like their community ensures that there's a steady stream food and company and throughout that time everyone having their feelings but also talking about  good memories rather than any kind of bad that happened or their death. But I think that also played into how I deal with personal grief  versions of myself have lived and died and I think for me I've never understood why I've gone through such massive bouts of depression but looking back on it now as old me who was in a different space I understand that I  was experiencing death of selves at a really rapid rate which makes it natural I think being depressed as  f*** a little bit dirty not doing manual labor crying and recalling good memories and dreams you'd hope to have during breakups. I think that's  a very natural part of the process. when my friends have breakups, I someone dies. I make sure have  steady company. I make sure they have a steady line to I let them be dirty and depressed and we lay in the bathroom floor and yap about it until the big emotions have passed. Because it's literal death. You it feels like death, our body difference.